lol

"Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To" (murdersofa) 05/27/2016 at 22:30 • Filed to: None

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S65 > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 05/27/2016 at 22:34

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A Retarded Miata Is Still A Miata...

CB > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 05/27/2016 at 22:37

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>”lol automatics are dumb”

>Three out of his four cars are automatics

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 05/27/2016 at 22:39

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Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > CB 05/27/2016 at 22:40

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I think he’s targeting automatic miatas specifically

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > CB 05/27/2016 at 22:40

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My sports car is a manual. My highway cars are autos. I see no problem with this arrangement but god damn doing any kind of performance driving involving going around a corner is infuriating without the ability to row your own.

CB > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 05/27/2016 at 22:42

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Fair enough. Still, it’s stupid. Drive whatever you want as long as you enjoy it.

CB > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 05/27/2016 at 22:43

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Some people don’t care for that. They want a top down cruiser that gets decent fuel economy and is fun to drive, and maybe they don’t want to have to deal with a stick. Nothing wrong with that.

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > CB 05/27/2016 at 22:44

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You’ll never make friends on FP with that kind of positivity

CB > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 05/27/2016 at 22:44

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Yeah, but really, it’s their loss. I’m pretty dang swell.

aberson Bresident of the FullyAssed Committe > S65 05/27/2016 at 22:46

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Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > CB 05/27/2016 at 22:46

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But what does Drake think about you is the real important question

CB > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 05/27/2016 at 22:48

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I dunno, we might be cool. We’re both from Toronto, and the Degrassi set (well, the exterior building) was actually just a few doors down from a factory I worked at.

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > CB 05/27/2016 at 22:51

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I think I stopped watching Degrassi after the school shooting episode.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > CB 05/27/2016 at 22:52

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Chrysler Concorde. Honda Civic Del Sol. PT Cruiser GT Cabriolet. It’s just frustrating to go looking for a deal and run across random automatic Miatas. They’re supposed to be rare because not many people bought them but they’re all over Craigslist for some reason.

CB > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 05/27/2016 at 22:52

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Well yeah, can’t blame you there. It was a pretty damn heavy episode.

Sam > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 05/27/2016 at 22:54

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Now I want a Mazdaspeed Miata with a DCT.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > Sam 05/27/2016 at 22:54

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*eye twitch*

Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 05/27/2016 at 22:55

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I don’t think an auto Miata would suck that much.

Flavien Vidal > CB 05/27/2016 at 22:55

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I don’t see it that way... People who buy sports cars with an automatic gearbox are, I think, people who don’t know better... They just have no idea how fun their cars could be if they learned to drive it with a manual. Notice that automatics are a problem you only see in the US and in Japan, one being a country where people are not taught to drive a stick in driving school, the other where you need a special driving license to drive a manual vehicule (most people choosing to get an automatic one because simpler to get...)

This is not even a question in the rest of the world where people are taught to drive solely on manual in driving schools. Yet, automatic cars are available everywhere in the world, but in France 85% of new cars sold last year where manuals. Why? Because people know and understand the advantage of driving a manual over an auto. They’ve been taught right away how to drive them and it’s a no brainer for people.

Searching “MX5" on Leboncoin in France, gives us 433 results with a manual gearbox and 20 results with an automatic. Out of those 20 results, only 4 were really Mx5 with an automatic (maybe disabled poeple...)

CB > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 05/27/2016 at 22:55

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And? You’re shopping used, deal with what you find. As I said to jkm: people bought their car for them, not you. And other enthusiasts are probably snagging the manual Miatas the moment the ad goes up.

Why are you looking for a Miata, anyway? Don’t you already have one?

jkm7680 > CB 05/27/2016 at 22:57

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Not this again...

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > CB 05/27/2016 at 22:58

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In my mind it kind of went against the concept of the show. It was supposed to address every modern teen issue under the sun: sex, stds, depression, parental stuff, broken homes, alcohol... but a school shooting is for shock value, as there is really no moral to be learned except life is cruel and random. Also guess who they made the shooter: the quiet "sweet" awkward guy (who also turned out to be abusive...) “It’s always the quiet ones.”

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap 05/27/2016 at 23:00

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Any automatic from the early 90s would suck pretty damn bad in a sports car.

CB > Flavien Vidal 05/27/2016 at 23:00

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People who buy sports cars with an automatic gearbox are, I think, people who don’t know better

That’s a pretty big assumption, isn’t it? Suppose someone lives in a big city and deals with traffic often. An automatic is a big convenience if your sports car is also your daily driver.

Suppose you’ve never driven manual, and don’t care to learn. That’s fine too. You do you, man.

Suppose using a clutch hurts your leg too much. An auto is fine.

Once again, people aren’t “missing out”. They buy the car they want and hopefully get the experience they want. There’s nothing wrong with that. A manual doesn’t automatically make a car fun, just as an automatic doesn’t make a car bad.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > CB 05/27/2016 at 23:01

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#manualelitestlyfe #autosuck #autotragic #OneTrueStickShift

Sam > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 05/27/2016 at 23:01

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The upshift noise though -

Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 05/27/2016 at 23:02

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But thats an NB miata.

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > aberson Bresident of the FullyAssed Committe 05/27/2016 at 23:03

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Gonna reuse this image a few thousand times for sure

CB > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 05/27/2016 at 23:03

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To be fair, we had a school shooting or two around Toronto at that point in time, so it was topical. It’s, unfortunately, a possibility that can happen. I mean, a kid got stabbed at my school the year after I left.

Shock value, yes, but I think there could be a life lesson learned. For example, they bullied the shit out of that kid, too. Didn’t they tar and feather him, or something similar like that? Unfortunate life lesson: your actions have repercussions that can be devastating.

CB > jkm7680 05/27/2016 at 23:05

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Replace Terry Crews with me, and this is basically the situation.

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > CB 05/27/2016 at 23:06

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How frequent is gun violence among youths in Canada? I ask as an American who feels like he reads about a school or mall shooting on an all-too frequent basis.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap 05/27/2016 at 23:06

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Didn’t they use the same trans? I’m actually not sure; I never paid attention to the NB, because popups

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > jkm7680 05/27/2016 at 23:07

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MISS MAH CELICA YET?

RallyWrench > Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap 05/27/2016 at 23:07

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The manual shifter in a Miata is one of the great gifts to motoring, not to be missed unless for a very good medical reason. The automatic takes all the joy out of them.

CB > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 05/27/2016 at 23:11

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According to Statscan, in 2012 the Canadian average was 43 per 100,000 youth between the ages of 12 and 17 are accused of firearms related violent crime, with those numbers being highest in Nunavut and the Northwest Territories, but not the Yukon, surprisingly enough. So, it’s not terrible, probably due to the availability of firearms being much lower than it is in the States. However, we do have our bad history of school shootings: Ecole Polytechnique and Dawson College come to mind immediately.

Mid Engine > Flavien Vidal 05/27/2016 at 23:15

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Shop mid engined $250k+ supercars, they’re all paddle shifters now. The PDK style trannies kill anything a human can accomplish with a third pedal. It makes me sad, cuz my Cayman is a stick..

Flavien Vidal > CB 05/27/2016 at 23:25

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This is exactly why I explained that “people living in bog city needing an automatic sports car” only exist in north america and in Japan... Big crowded cities are everywhere in the world. Not just in North america or in Japan. Yet, people still buy manual by quite a margin in other countries and automatic sports cars like Miatas are almost non-existent elsewhere.

“Suppose you’ve never driven manual, and don’t care to learn. That’s fine too. You do you, man.” . That’s exactly why I said “people don’t know better”. Everywhere else in the world people HAVE to learn to drive a manual, so those people by definition, do know better. And since they know better, they also happen not to buy automatic sports cars.

“Suppose using a clutch hurts your leg too much. An auto is fine.” . Of course, as I mentioned, the 4 Miatas sold in France right now with auto gearbox might very well have been bought by disabled people.

“Once again, people aren’t “missing out”. They buy the car they want and hopefully get the experience they want. There’s nothing wrong with that. A manual doesn’t automatically make a car fun, just as an automatic doesn’t make a car bad.” Unless american people and japanese are very different from the rest of the world, I would say that the ignorance of american and japanese toward manual gearboxes do make them miss out. If what you said were true, people everywhere in the world would buy automatic gearboxes in a similar proportion as in north america and in Japan (90% of new car sales are automatics in the US, it’s even worse in Japan with 95%.). Yet, they don’t. That means “choice” is not the reason behind those differences. Also, as automatic gearboxes get better and better, people elsewhere in the world start buying them more and more... (95% of new cars were manual in France 10 years ago, vs 85% now). But as of right now, only very high end cars have good automatic gearboxes. Once it trickles down to lower end cars, those people who, don’t forget, “know better” will start buying them more because they will simply be the best option available. It’s still not the case for now.

CB > Flavien Vidal 05/27/2016 at 23:32

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So, what you’re saying is that manual is the only way to do things, and everyone else is wrong for buying sports cars with manuals? By that logic, is everyone who drives a sports car that isn’t the best one also wrong, since they’re not getting that ultimate driving experience?

Look man, I get the whole hivemind around “manuals are the best and people who don’t drive stick are idiots”, but come on. People are going to do their own thing with their car, why act like they’re inferior because of it?

bhtooefr > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 05/27/2016 at 23:40

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The NA used a JATCO L4N71B, which dates back to 1983. (In fact, it was the last application for that transmission, and Nissan stopped using it themselves after 1990.)

NB used an Aisin A44DE, which I believe was an electronic control version of the A44DL, dating back to 1982.

Mercedes Streeter > CB 05/27/2016 at 23:48

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I am saddened how some were jumping down your throat over this. Nobody is holding a gun to their heads and forcing them to pilot a car with an auto. If someone wants to drive an auto, let them! What does it matter to them what kind of transmission someone wants to have in their own car?????

CB > Mercedes Streeter 05/27/2016 at 23:50

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Nah, no worries. Not really jumping down my throat, it’s just a discussion. It’s cool.

Mercedes Streeter > CB 05/27/2016 at 23:53

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Ah, well that’s good. :) The last thing I hate to see is Oppo fueling silly stereotypes. We’re better than that. :)

CB > Mercedes Streeter 05/27/2016 at 23:54

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Debatable on that second part, not going to lie. But I’m not going to lose any sleep over this.

Flavien Vidal > CB 05/27/2016 at 23:56

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No, I’m just basing myself on what other people in the world chose. Automatics are popular in only 3 countries (Japan, US and Canada, though to a lesser extend in Canada). Those 3 countries are basically the only ones that don’t teach how to drive a stick to get a license by default.

Then I notice that only those 3 countries have a much higher proportion of automatic cars on the market (inversely proportional to the rest of the world basically).

I also think people buy what they think is best for them and that does not change whether you’re american or indian.

So since people who know by default how to drive a manual (and therefore can drive automatics), buy manuals instead of automatics, it means that the people who are more knowledgeable about manual transmissions are able to chose more wisely than people who only know automatics and can’t drive manual because they never learned.

Most japanese or americans have never driven a manual gearbox, therefore they don’t buy them. But people who know both, automatics and manual, tend to chose manuals by a huge proportion as shown in the rest of the world.

Which is why I think ignorance toward manual transmissions is the main problem of the two countries who buy such a huge majority of automatics today. I don’t think it’s based on “choice”.

Flavien Vidal > Mid Engine 05/28/2016 at 00:05

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Of course, because for these types of cars, the automatic transmission is simply vastely better, faster and more efficient than the manual one. The occasionnal supercar with a manual gearbox does not exist for performance, just for manual gearbox afficionados. It’s far from being the case with lower end cars though, a huge majority having a gearbox vastely inferior in term of pertty much everything, than its manual counterpart.

CB > Flavien Vidal 05/28/2016 at 00:11

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Consider other factors, though:

1) Manual vehicles are cheaper to purchase than automatics, by a few hundred to a few thousand pounds/Euros from looking at a few automakers. The sales tax in Europe on automobiles hovers between 17% and 27% , whereas in the US it’s much lower . With that much sales tax, and if you’re buying a cheap car, you might want to pinch as many pennies as possible.

2) Manuals are less complex than automatics (and I won’t even mention the Fiesta’s current DCT woes). Once again, want to save money? Buy a car that’s less complex so less shit goes wrong.

3) Manuals have historically had better fuel economy than automatics. On a continent where gas is pretty damn expensive, better fuel economy is probably a plus.

4) I’ve seen a few forums where people consider automatics to be a luxury not worth spending money on, and claims that driver’s ed is done only in manual cars, to the point where you actually end up with a special license saying you can’t drive manual vehicles (according to one forum poster). How true these claims are, I haven’t the slightest clue, but they might be worth considering.

Anyway, I wouldn’t say it’s because they “know better”, I’d say it’s because it’s cheaper.

“Most japanese or americans have never driven a manual gearbox, therefore they don’t buy them. But people who know both, automatics and manual, tend to chose manuals by a huge proportion as shown in the rest of the world.”

Citation needed.

Mercedes Streeter > Flavien Vidal 05/28/2016 at 00:18

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I think the biggest problem here isn’t driver education, it’s the automakers.

Automakers have been pushing autos in a few countries for a number of decades now, and it’s been devastatingly successful. Part of it is simply American culture. We like to be lazy and have everything done for us automatically. So, as autos rose to “power”, the Manual was seen as the inferior option...the option you’d only really choose if you were poor. And thus, the rise of the auto tranny also joined forces with the rise of the SUV...and now both are firmly ingrained in our culture.

Likewise, the Manual is a dying breed because automatics have caught up. Automakers have figured out how to make a DCT function better than a standard manual, and for about the same price too. Technology itself threatens our manuals. It’s an old tech that’s almost exclusively reserved for enthusiasts...and in our profit driven world, nobody cares about enthusiasts anymore. And that’s why you even see automakers like Porsche even ditching manuals...because they no longer see them as financially viable.

Is it ignorant? Nah...unfortunately, it’s just how technology works...Something newer comes along every year until the old tech just about ceases to exist.

In a way, us manual enthusiasts are like those who love coal-fired energy...we know there are technologically superior means, but we really really just love how things used to be.

Flavien Vidal > CB 05/28/2016 at 00:35

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“Citation needed.” In Japan I’m definitely certain it’s the case, in the US, lots of people have tried or have vaguely been taught how to drive a manual by a parent/friend, but I truly think most people simply never even tried, maybe simply due to lack of availability to even learn.

Also efficiency is not that much of a problem anymore, new automatic cars being even regulary more efficient than their manual counterpart and while Europe does have higher consumption taxes than the US, it’s not the case with Canada for exemple with 12 to 15% of consumption taxes and where 91% of new cars sold are automatics. In Europe most countries have a sales tax between 19 and 22%, which is arguably not that much higher, or at least not to the point of having people of those countries go from 91% of automatics to 85% of manual...

As far as america goes, I don’t know of any state with a separate manual and automatic licenses. I might be wrong. In Japan it works like that. Manual licenses are a bit more difficult to get, require more practice hours and cost a bit more, which is why 95% of new cars sold in Japan are automatics. People simply have no idea how to drive a manual and don’t know better.

CB > Flavien Vidal 05/28/2016 at 00:42

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““Citation needed.” In Japan I’m definitely certain it’s the case, in the US, lots of people have tried or have vaguely been taught how to drive a manual by a parent/friend, but I truly think most people simply never even tried, maybe simply due to lack of availability to even learn.”

Once again, anecdotal evidence. We can argue anecdotal as much as we want, but that doesn’t mean anything.

That bit about automatic and manual licenses was for Europe, by the way, but once again, that seemed anecdotal, so take it with a grain of salt.

Your bit on Canadian taxes is a fair point, but vehicles that many people purchase may not come with a manual with the options they want, for some stupid reason, so they have to get an automatic, or automatics are only available on the stripper models, which could also explain the number of automatics on American roads. Consider the number of CUVs, SUVs, and trucks that are sold with manuals - not too many, right? So that would already skew the numbers.

“People simply have no idea how to drive a manual and don’t know better.”

Why do you keep saying “better”? What does better mean? Why is the manual the best transmission in all cases?

Flavien Vidal > CB 05/28/2016 at 01:11

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Well, it is anecdotal indeed, but after 10+ years in north america, meeting with hundreds of people and with quite a majority either simply not knowing how to drive a manual or people who “haven’t driven one for many years and don’t really feel confortable driving”, as far as anecdoctal point go, I don’t think it’s far for the reality.

For Japan, with licenses being separate, it’s actually fairly easy to say that a huge majority simply don’t know how to drive manual and never even tried. People with only an automatic license (80+% of people only get an automatic license) simply aren’t allowed to drive an manual and therefore don’t know and have never tried.

As far as licenses go, I think only the UK has a separate manual/auto license. Most people in the UK do get a manual license though, as historically and unlike the US, cars have pretty much always been manual in the UK and in Europe (75% of cars sold in the UK are manual). If you can only drive an automatic, you end up incapable of driving 80 or 85% of the cars on the road in the UK.

The unavailable option thing is not the reason for such a massive difference between north america and the rest of the world where those cars are often also sold. Again, the difference is WAY too huge. Also don’t forget that even in the 50's 80+% of new cars sold were automatics.

I keep on saying “better”, because people who know more, know by extension better.

Flavien Vidal > Mercedes Streeter 05/28/2016 at 01:28

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I totally agree that automatics are becoming superior to manuals. And this is why automatic are bcoming the only option for high end supercars. This is also why automatics are getting more popular in countries were manual were getting 98% of sales just 10 years ago. Because they are gtting better.

While the culture argument in north america is generally valid, that still lines up with the “ignorance” part of my commentary. Automatics seen as more luxurious and “the thing to have” for decades participated in that ignorance toward manual transmissions. Countries without this pre-conceived idea went and stayed with manuals. as I said, people buy what they think is best for them. Manufacturers only provide them with what they want.

And as far as the old tech being reserved exclusively for enthusiasts, that’s again a north american point of view. sales of manual cars everywhere in the rest of the world proves it. Automatic transmissions in regular cars still being in general vastely inferior to their manual counterparts. Only in term of gas consumption have regular automatics managed to now keep up with manuals. Acceleration, braking, corner stability and throttle response are still inferior to automatics, unless you drive an 2016 Porsche or Ferrari, which all have btw paddle shifters, fully automatic mode being quite a bit slower.

duurtlang > CB 05/28/2016 at 05:49

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There’s a difference in licensing here in the Netherlands as well. Almost everyone gets a full license, but if you do your driving test in a car equipped with an automatic gearbox you get a limited automatic-only license. This is a huge burden, as it means you can’t drive the vast majority of cars on the road and will have to struggle to find a rental (and pay more) with an automatic gearbox.

I don’t know a single person who’s taken the driving test in an automatic, other than my (German) girlfriend, but she got her license in New Zealand. As a result she’s without a valid license now as driving licenses from some countries (New Zealand and the US included) aren’t seen as acceptable beyond a tourist visit.

CB > duurtlang 05/28/2016 at 10:21

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Ah, thanks for the clarification!

E90M3 > Sam 05/28/2016 at 18:01

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I used to be against DCTs until I drove my dad’s 135is with one, and it drives pretty damn nice, plus those blips when you downshift.